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C.Kay
Average Member
United Kingdom
187 posts
Joined: Mar, 2006
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 Posted - 2013/08/03 : 19:15:27
quote:
Originally posted by Elliott:
quote:
Originally posted by C.Kay:
And the like are not worthy of a decent response. Unfortunately some people are stupid. Someone was complaining that Knight in Shing Armour was Dub-Core the other week. I mean, seriously? Half of those moaning don't even know what they're talking about lol
This annoys me as well. These are doubtless the same people who call glitchy electro house with a clear straight 4/4 kick "dubstep". It's hard to meaningfully criticise what you really don't understand at all.
Especially with hardcore, I've heard "dubcore" or "electrocore" used pretty much interchangeably to describe everything from sidechained basses to minimal drops. The actual dubcore and electrocore movements (which admittedly did exist in volume for quite some time) have become caricatured by many to the point where they now represent "all hardcore I don't like" or "anything without a supersaw lead".
I think with Knight In Shining Armour, it's just the atypical lead that tricks them out. Truth be told, I don't like that lead either but I know it's simply because I don't like that lead and not because the tune is "dubcore".
Education for the needy: If you want to hear heavily electro-influenced hardcore, listen to Gammer's "Switch". If you want to hear heavily dubstep-influenced hardcore (albeit straightened into a 4-to-the-floor beat), listen to Styles' "Screwface". There's actually a lot less dubstep-influenced hardcore than most people think there is. That minimal "dubcore" tune you're listening to with nothing but a kick and a dirty, almost atonal sidechained bass is more likely to be electro-influenced. If you really need a pejorative name for it, it probably falls under the electrocore umbrella. All this stuff with these modern synths (e.g. DS mix on CXH9) is usually neither dubcore nor electrocore -- it just contains echoes of what's happening in mainstream dance, house, etc. at the current time.
^^ this!
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Samination
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Sweden
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Joined: Jul, 2004
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Posted - 2013/08/03 : 19:44:08
Oh I have heard the samples, or do you mean 1:30 long samples (which is most of the trackplay) isn't ENOUGH to comment? Or would you prefer I pirated it so I can comment properly? Fine by Me. I might as well continying being a **** as that's what the top tier guys think of us. And for the record, I will still buy FW tracks if they release tracks I like. until then, nope, not going there.
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Edited by - Samination on 2013/08/03 19:46:13 |
C.Kay
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United Kingdom
187 posts
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Posted - 2013/08/03 : 19:52:35
I would say that you haven't given it a chance, yes. Music can grow on you......
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Samination
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Posted - 2013/08/04 : 04:28:03
Ofcourse it will :P
Wouldn't suprise me one bit I would actually like it, around the next time hardcore changes again, but in the end, I have to disagree. I still hate most of the mainstream UK Hardcore released 2005-2010, tho I keep finding a few gems from time to time.
My previous reply might have been one of the least better once, but you're playing the "defender" part pretty well. "oh you haven't heard it at all have you?" is s typical response from them. It also reminded me, thought you didnt resolve to using shitty words, when I commented on a Styles & Gammer track (mind you, I only wrote "only godo part tbh"), and the reply I got was this: "wtf are you ****ing smoking .... TBH ... douce bag". The fanboys aren't much better than the h8's
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C.Kay
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United Kingdom
187 posts
Joined: Mar, 2006
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Posted - 2013/08/04 : 16:41:23
I'm not playing 'defender'. Everything I post on here is my view on things.
Unfortunately, when I say that people don't give things a chance, it's very true.
Whizzkid put a post up on Facebook asking what people thought of Lil Wayne's new album a few weeks back. You should have seen the abuse he got because it wasn't 'hardcore', and people saying 'its shit, all hip hop is'. They hasn't heard the album, but nooooo, they've already decided its shit and gave Whizzkid a load of shit over it :/
I'll give you another example of things we have to deal with - Styles & Modulate made a track called 'to the stars'. Nowhere in the description of the track did it say 'hardcore', yet the comments were full of 'what the ****, this isn't hardcore', 'you're killing hardcore' and so on, even styles got a load of shit because he dared to make something that isnt kick drum lead 'Styles get back to making hardcore this is shit', like he's not allowed to make or like anything else.
Someone on here said they were going to punch Gammer because he was making music they didn't like, on another site he was told to go hang himself, and others have had abuse, not for the music, but personal abuse thrown at them just because they don't like a track.
This is why they've pretty much given up trying to be reasonable with people and now give back as good as they get.
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Samination
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Sweden
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Posted - 2013/08/04 : 17:37:20
quote:
Originally posted by C.Kay:
Unfortunately, when I say that people don't give things a chance, it's very true.
And I have. It's not completly bad, but it's nothing I would want to listen to for more than 20 minutes or so.
quote:
Originally posted by C.Kay:
Whizzkid put a post up on Facebook asking what people thought of Lil Wayne's new album a few weeks back. You should have seen the abuse he got because it wasn't 'hardcore', and people saying 'its shit, all hip hop is'. They hasn't heard the album, but nooooo, they've already decided its shit and gave Whizzkid a load of shit over it :/
I don't like Rap much either, but you should be allowed to listen to whatever you want. The people who responded there definitly are stupid (you should've seen the reaction people had on the sy vs (mc)storm incident).
quote:
Originally posted by C.Kay:
I'll give you another example of things we have to deal with - Styles & Modulate made a track called 'to the stars'. Nowhere in the description of the track did it say 'hardcore', yet the comments were full of 'what the ****, this isn't hardcore', 'you're killing hardcore' and so on, even styles got a load of shit because he dared to make something that isnt kick drum lead 'Styles get back to making hardcore this is shit', like he's not allowed to make or like anything else.
They might not have made a hardcore track, but going back to the Clubland discussion. Breeze made an album for a Hardcore combilation and alot of people didn't think it was Hardcore, rather electro or drumstep played faster. Obviously the hate transfered to the latest Clubland Xtreme Hardcore album before it came out, and somehow it didn't change much (for the ones who actually like they stuff it might sound different, but for people who don't listen to it normally it will sound the same., I'm refering to my early comment about that).
quote:
Originally posted by C.Kay:
Someone on here said they were going to punch Gammer because he was making music they didn't like, on another site he was told to go hang himself, and others have had abuse, not for the music, but personal abuse thrown at them just because they don't like a track.
This is why they've pretty much given up trying to be reasonable with people and now give back as good as they get.
No matter what, death threats or threats of damage is completly wrong. But people should still be allowed to say "it's shit" without getting comments like "your comment is invalid". Not everyone can express in production terms why the track they (probably) heard is bad. Then comments like "it's good" should also be not tolerated as it doesn't say why it's good.
I don't know who it was on here that might have said he or she would want to punch Gammer, but one person on Twitter (who used to be here) could be that person. Most of the haters where on USH.net, but they where so far up their own ass when it came to newer stuff it's good that Paul finally killed it.
But the bottom line is.
Death threats and harm. Bad
Ignoring critisism because it's negative. Bad (It happens, so there's no denying it)
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Edited by - Samination on 2013/08/04 17:44:10 |
DJ Hellfury
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Austria
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Posted - 2013/08/04 : 17:44:47
thats the problem about realising multi-genre ep's.
for the majority of people, it's not obvious that you guys try to push the boundaries and release different genre-tunes on same ep, they expect 100% hardcore. if there isnt a clear message, clearifying that you don't plan to deliever tunes for the hardcore scene only and want to stand out (plus bringing hardcore to other genres vise versa), then there will be always (extremely) dumb comments and flame wars, sad as it is.
i know producing/mixing hardcore only is boring as hell, but they expect hardcore, since FW producers are well-known for creating hardcore atm.
either way, there is a need for a clear message (for those, who can't see the label tactic after several releases), since i believe you guys can't stand the "create a sub-label for non-hardcore tunes" and "pick another alias for non-hc tunes" strategies.
ps: there are FAR less people out there liking different genres, thats another, risky point of releasing multi-genre ep's. the more you go specific or the greater the mixture is, the lesser the possibility is that people out there like both.
quote:
Originally posted by Samination:
Breeze made an album for a Hardcore combilation and alot of people didn't think it was Hardcore, rather electro or drumstep played faster. Obviously the hate transfered to the latest Clubland Xtreme Hardcore album before it came out, and somehow it didn't change much (for the ones who actually like they stuff it might sound different, but for people who don't listen to it normally it will sound the same.,[...]).
When i heard the first clips about the breeze mix, it felt like an enforced try to bring other influences to hardcore, and i guess there were others thinking the same way, thats why there was so much flame. Imo. he should have played half the stuff he used in this mix, the other half hardcore that people could recognize; matter of balance, but that will be probably labeled as personal taste.
quote:
Originally posted by Samination:
No matter what, death threats or threats of damage is completly wrong. But people should still be allowed to say "it's shit" without getting comments like "your comment is invalid". Not everyone can express in production terms why the track they (probably) heard is bad. Then comments like "it's good" should also be not tolerated as it doesn't say why it's good.
Death threats and harm. Bad
Ignoring critisism because it's negative. Bad (It happens, so there's no denying it)
True story, but as producer you don't even read both "shit" and "phat tune m8" comments. if there isnt some point of good, constructive feedback, then you will only remember the >amount< of positive comments, most of the time. noone likes to keep the bad things in mind, specially when you have worked on something on a personal/(slightly) emotional level.
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Edited by - DJ Hellfury on 2013/08/04 18:07:23 |
C.Kay
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United Kingdom
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Posted - 2013/08/04 : 18:10:32
It's part and parcel though, Samination. In 2002 hardcore was tagged 'sped up trance' by those that didn't like it. It happens every time something evolves, but what is different this time around is that not everyone is jumping on the same sound. There's a lot more variety about now compared to back then. Not everyone likes the changes, but changes have to happen in order to keep things moving forwards. You have HU pushing their sound, you have the power stomp sound, you have Thumpa pushing freedom, and he's doing an amazing job at it, Breeze/Modulate/Petruccio/Tyler pushing the 'dub sound', Styles is doing what he's always done, making his trademark 'uplifting, melodic' sound, and he's trying some new things, Gammer is doing what he's always done, and again is trying some new things, RSR & UKN making bouncier hardcore,and there's a shed load of producers & labels still making stuff in the 2008 sound. The variety is great. One label does not change that.
Take Power Stomp as an example, the sound as it is is great, but what happens in a year or two, it will either have that same sound and people will moan that it's now 'boring', or it will evolve and add new sounds, and no doubt people will moan that it's not power stomp anymore.
No-one will ever win, you can't please everyone, but producers can either stay the same forever and people get bored and disappear to other genres, or they can try and evolve and risk alienating some older fans, but pull in anew generation and keep things moving
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C.Kay
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Posted - 2013/08/04 : 18:13:54
Hellfury - the latest CXH was 4 mixes instead of the usual 3. They didn't want four mixes that sounded the same,so Breeze decided to do something different and change it up a bit. It was that simple. I personally do not see the harm, it's just one cd....
In regards to your other comment, RAM records etc have remixes of their tracks by artists in other genres, dub-step labels do the same, all released on the same label as the original. I don't see the harm in trying something similar with hardcore, it's an opportunity to pull in listeners from other genres into listening to the music.
What's wrong with that?
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Edited by - C.Kay on 2013/08/04 18:17:51 |
Ken Masters
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Posted - 2013/08/04 : 18:19:41
I refuse to believe these guys take the criticism to heart like many people think.
The people that post these comments are just pathetic little children that vent they're anger through a keyboard.
These morons have no knowledge of music in general & are trying to tell these established, talented guys what to do. Surely they just just laugh it off? and if they cant then they need guidance and training in dealing with popular positions they find themselves in
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C.Kay
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Posted - 2013/08/04 : 18:27:40
quote:
Originally posted by Ken Masters:
I refuse to believe these guys take the criticism to heart like many people think.
The people that post these comments are just pathetic little children that vent they're anger through a keyboard.
These morons have no knowledge of music in general & are trying to tell these established, talented guys what to do. Surely they just just laugh it off? and if they cant then they need guidance and training in dealing with popular positions they find themselves in
They do laugh it off, but it's seen as arrogance by most.
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DJ Hellfury
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Posted - 2013/08/04 : 19:03:10
quote:
Originally posted by C.Kay:
No-one will ever win, you can't please everyone, but producers can either stay the same forever and people get bored and disappear to other genres, or they can try and evolve and risk alienating some older fans, but pull in anew generation and keep things moving
thats indeed a risky point, but if you really like to have both fan generations, then you still can produce older sounding and tunes with new elements; it's not like an "A OR B" situation. the only thing preventing a producer is the initial idea to create a older sounding tune; like gammer did with nostalgia.
quote:
Originally posted by C.Kay:
Hellfury - the latest CXH was 4 mixes instead of the usual 3. They didn't want four mixes that sounded the same,so Breeze decided to do something different and change it up a bit. It was that simple. I personally do not see the harm, it's just one cd....
I get it when AATW said "NOPE, not 4cds hardcore only this time.", but a sudden full-mode change in style on a whole CD wasnt the best idea imo.; maybe "Harcore vs. ?", dropping stuff here and there with 50% in total, then things may have went less dramatic. It's an "what if"-situation, which isnt helpful now at all, but maybe for next time.
The people went crazy, because it was a mix for "Clubland X-treme Hardcore". It's a formal fallacy (hope thats the right term) and a marketing-mistake from label, not from you guys in the first place. People expected 100% hardcore, (it's clearly a "dumb" and easy explanation, but thats how i felt it was)... most cds are hardcore, true, but if album title doesnt cover up the whole package, then there is trouble.
quote:
Originally posted by C.Kay:
In regards to your other comment, RAM records etc have remixes of their tracks by artists in other genres, dub-step labels do the same, all released on the same label as the original. I don't see the harm in trying something similar with hardcore, it's an opportunity to pull in listeners from other genres into listening to the music.
What's wrong with that?
personally, i don't mind multi-genre eps (i would instant buy a proper trance/hardcore ep!), but then you have to realise: The scene is sooo much smaller compared to dubstep or drum and bass, there are far less people out there to serve with multi-genre ep's.
since the percentage of people >liking/loving< more than one genre is small, you reduce the amount of interested customers, its even more fatal in such a scene (theory-based)
on a serious note, when you release an ep, people will check BOTH sides (captain obvious, pls fly away), the chance of people liking both sides is, now i will repeat myself sadly, small.
try to change ep outline, like to 3 or 4 tunes, with 1 non-hc tune in both cases.
imo., you can keep up with current ep outline, when you guys are both popular/known in hardcore and dubstep, but now, you are more popular in hardcore (to my knowlegde)...
... or you get bigger names to remix your stuff for ep, then i think it's more likely that e.g. dubstep fans will take a look on the ep. and probably like hardcore. or other way around, you release hardcore (remixes) on dubstep labels. only possibilities.
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C.Kay
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Posted - 2013/08/04 : 19:25:48
.
The stuff FW release isn't actually Dub-Step, it's Drum Step. Dub-Step is 128BPM and would never mix with hardcore. Drum-Step is basically 170bpm with a few drums removed, so that's another misconception by people.
Dub-Step is nowhere near as popular as it was, mainly because it had nowhere to go and progress to. It's not completely dead, you still have some awesome tracks by the likes of X-Kore, who I actually met last year and he was and still is a big hardcore fan, he loves Brisk & Ham. But anyway, that's a another story lol.
Hardcore can evolve, it always has. I personally think that soon you will be seeing things go back to the 90's way of thinking, with more & more multi genre raves, everything under one roof & in the same arena, like it used to be.
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Edited by - C.Kay on 2013/08/04 19:27:20 |
DJ Hellfury
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Posted - 2013/08/04 : 19:41:30
The thing with dubstep was just an >example<, the main idea behind it is still accurate.
fyi, i have heard that one dubstep bigname leaved the scene recently, saying something similar like "i made dubstep since 10 (?) years, its almost dead now", i'm just not sure if thats really the case.
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C.Kay
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Posted - 2013/08/04 : 19:49:21
Yeah, that would be Skream. He's another one who go a shit load of abuse. His roots are in the house scene, and started playing some house in is sets and the Dub-Step purists hated it, told him he'd sold out, hes killing dub-step & all that bollocks. Not much different to what's happening here really. Do something different to change it up a bit and.......
So it's not just hardcore it happens in
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Edited by - C.Kay on 2013/08/04 21:21:59 |
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