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djDMS
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
10,304 posts
Joined: Feb, 2003
572 hardcore releases
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 Posted - 2015/10/10 : 22:10:22
1. You're wrong
2. You might want to a bit less patronising.
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Elliott
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,147 posts
Joined: May, 2012
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Posted - 2015/10/10 : 23:20:28
quote:
Originally posted by djDMS:
1. You're wrong
2. You might want to a bit less patronising.
I can't tell who you're replying to but if it's Brodster, I suggest you check out his music. From a technical standpoint, the guy absolutely slays it (listen to the engineering quality on Citylights for example). I trust his opinion on the matter. For my part, I've never tried to make a "modern hardcore" track because I hate that style but I really don't see how it would be any more difficult than the traditional supersaw-driven stuff. The leads are a lot weaker on the newer tracks anyway so I assume a lot less work goes into layering.
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i gave up producing
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rafferty
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
660 posts
Joined: Feb, 2012
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Posted - 2015/10/10 : 23:58:26
quote:
Originally posted by brodster:
quote:
Originally posted by rafferty:
Not sure what the reason is. Maybe they don't know how to as the new edm Hardcore productions are more intelligent and technical to produce.
Do you make music? If you did you would know that the new "edm hardcore" takes no more skill than the "outdated trance hardcore" does to produce. If anything the new stuff is simpler than the older stuff.
No that is wrong. EDM has far more technical basslines, sample kicks and riffs than your standard UK Trancey Hardcore of the 2000s.
Making a Trancey Hardcore Track is simple as.
- Standard Kick and bassline
- Standard Simple Trancey tune
- Standard Breakdown
Now how is that technical lol???
One of the reasons UK Hardcore went down hill so fast was the lack of imagination and creativity. Everyone sounded the same.
If you want to make Hardcore that has been done a million times before that is fine. Just don't expect to go anywhere lol
All the new producers that are rising to the top fast are the ones trying new things and have their own sound and not trying to emulate stale boring dated sounds like 2000s Trance on speed at 170bpm.
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Edited by - rafferty on 2015/10/11 00:17:17 |
Samination
Advanced Member
Sweden
13,230 posts
Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2015/10/11 : 07:00:18
... As soon as you've made a bassline, it becomes a template for reuse. Then it becomes a standard aswell. I don't know much about production either, but i have seen how it's made atleast...
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Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber
http://samination.se/
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brodster
Junior Member
United States
99 posts
Joined: Nov, 2013
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Posted - 2015/10/11 : 08:16:12
quote:
Originally posted by rafferty:
quote:
Originally posted by brodster:
quote:
Originally posted by rafferty:
Not sure what the reason is. Maybe they don't know how to as the new edm Hardcore productions are more intelligent and technical to produce.
Do you make music? If you did you would know that the new "edm hardcore" takes no more skill than the "outdated trance hardcore" does to produce. If anything the new stuff is simpler than the older stuff.
No that is wrong. EDM has far more technical basslines, sample kicks and riffs than your standard UK Trancey Hardcore of the 2000s.
Making a Trancey Hardcore Track is simple as.
- Standard Kick and bassline
- Standard Simple Trancey tune
- Standard Breakdown
Now how is that technical lol???
One of the reasons UK Hardcore went down hill so fast was the lack of imagination and creativity. Everyone sounded the same.
If you want to make Hardcore that has been done a million times before that is fine. Just don't expect to go anywhere lol
All the new producers that are rising to the top fast are the ones trying new things and have their own sound and not trying to emulate stale boring dated sounds like 2000s Trance on speed at 170bpm.
You cite JTS and Weaver as examples of dated production. Sure they may use trancey riffs still but they use very similar kicks and basslines to the stuff guys like Gammer and Styles are making now. If they wanted to they for sure could make stuff similar to Gammer and Styles, but they don't because they prefer the trance style. I agree things get old when they are done a lot but it is only a matter of time before the edm starts sounding old (one can argue it already does). We shouldn't focus so much about what is new and old but about what sounds good and having a diverse range of sounds to choose from is better than having one sound and it getting old. It's a good thing that guys like Gammer and Styles are making fresh edm inspired hardcore just like it is a good thing that guys like Weaver and Technikore are making older style trancy hardcore albeit with more modern sounding kicks and basses. Diversity is what makes hardcore a fun genre.
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Elliott
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,147 posts
Joined: May, 2012
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Posted - 2015/10/11 : 08:28:11
quote:
Originally posted by rafferty:
quote:
Originally posted by brodster:
quote:
Originally posted by rafferty:
Not sure what the reason is. Maybe they don't know how to as the new edm Hardcore productions are more intelligent and technical to produce.
Do you make music? If you did you would know that the new "edm hardcore" takes no more skill than the "outdated trance hardcore" does to produce. If anything the new stuff is simpler than the older stuff.
No that is wrong. EDM has far more technical basslines, sample kicks and riffs than your standard UK Trancey Hardcore of the 2000s.
Making a Trancey Hardcore Track is simple as.
- Standard Kick and bassline
- Standard Simple Trancey tune
- Standard Breakdown
Now how is that technical lol???
One of the reasons UK Hardcore went down hill so fast was the lack of imagination and creativity. Everyone sounded the same.
If you want to make Hardcore that has been done a million times before that is fine. Just don't expect to go anywhere lol
All the new producers that are rising to the top fast are the ones trying new things and have their own sound and not trying to emulate stale boring dated sounds like 2000s Trance on speed at 170bpm.
You're arguing with someone who has actually produced both styles to a high standard about which one is harder to make.
Seems kinda futile to me.
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i gave up producing
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brodster
Junior Member
United States
99 posts
Joined: Nov, 2013
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Posted - 2015/10/11 : 08:28:53
quote:
Originally posted by Vladel:
Yeah the new stuff must be easier to make if you aren't actually trying to make it sound good
When I say "Simpler" I do not mean easier to make. Bigroom/Melbcore is simpler and generally less melodic than "Trancey-core". What I mean to say is the new stuff is really no different than the old stuff. The same production philosophies are still applied they are just using different sounds for the new stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by Elliott:
You're arguing with someone who has actually produced both styles to a high standard about which one is harder to make.
Seems kinda futile to me.
Lol I appreciate that Elliot, but you don't need to defend me so much. I'm not an amazing producer. I just think it makes no sense to say that one style of music is objectively better than another style.
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Edited by - brodster on 2015/10/11 08:31:49 |
djDMS
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
10,304 posts
Joined: Feb, 2003
572 hardcore releases
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Posted - 2015/10/11 : 08:31:27
quote:
Originally posted by Elliott:
quote:
Originally posted by djDMS:
1. You're wrong
2. You might want to a bit less patronising.
I can't tell who you're replying to but if it's Brodster, I suggest you check out his music. From a technical standpoint, the guy absolutely slays it (listen to the engineering quality on Citylights for example). I trust his opinion on the matter. For my part, I've never tried to make a "modern hardcore" track because I hate that style but I really don't see how it would be any more difficult than the traditional supersaw-driven stuff. The leads are a lot weaker on the newer tracks anyway so I assume a lot less work goes into layering.
My mistake, thought I'd quoted Rafferty.
I'm all for 'progress'. But if that progress means just grabbing whatever is popular at the time then it can't be can it?
And for the record, I don't want Hardcore to sound like it did 10 or 20 years ago, I want it to have it's own identity like it did in the beginning. I've played recent Hardcore to people and the reaction was unanimous- 'oh, that just sounds like....'
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Vladel
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,525 posts
Joined: Feb, 2008
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Posted - 2015/10/11 : 08:35:16
Well when I listen to the edm stuff I don't think "wow this must have been really hard to make," I'm thinking more like "this sounds shit, if I had the talent, I'd make something better"
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Elliott
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,147 posts
Joined: May, 2012
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Posted - 2015/10/11 : 08:37:56
quote:
Originally posted by djDMS:
quote:
Originally posted by Elliott:
quote:
Originally posted by djDMS:
1. You're wrong
2. You might want to a bit less patronising.
I can't tell who you're replying to but if it's Brodster, I suggest you check out his music. From a technical standpoint, the guy absolutely slays it (listen to the engineering quality on Citylights for example). I trust his opinion on the matter. For my part, I've never tried to make a "modern hardcore" track because I hate that style but I really don't see how it would be any more difficult than the traditional supersaw-driven stuff. The leads are a lot weaker on the newer tracks anyway so I assume a lot less work goes into layering.
My mistake, thought I'd quoted Rafferty.
I'm all for 'progress'. But if that progress means just grabbing whatever is popular at the time then it can't be can it?
And for the record, I don't want Hardcore to sound like it did 10 or 20 years ago, I want it to have it's own identity like it did in the beginning. I've played recent Hardcore to people and the reaction was unanimous- 'oh, that just sounds like....'
Yeah, that does make more sense. I agree completely.
I immediately feel the need to defend trancey hardcore from attack. That *is* UK hardcore to me. If people ever stop producing the trancey '07 style stuff, I'm gone. Diversity is a very good thing. I know a lot of people who really liked that old sound. Those same people can't relate to the new style of hardcore at all. Or, as you said, they just consider it a rip-off of <insert big name EDM producer>. There will always be room in hardcore for the 00s sounds and that's the way it should be. Is anyone seriously going to sit there and say that the big room inspired stuff has more variation than '07 era hardcore?
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Edited by - Elliott on 2015/10/11 08:39:27 |
Elliott
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,147 posts
Joined: May, 2012
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Posted - 2015/10/11 : 08:46:59
quote:
Originally posted by brodster:
quote:
Originally posted by Vladel:
Yeah the new stuff must be easier to make if you aren't actually trying to make it sound good
When I say "Simpler" I do not mean easier to make. Bigroom/Melbcore is simpler and generally less melodic than "Trancey-core". What I mean to say is the new stuff is really no different than the old stuff. The same production philosophies are still applied they are just using different sounds for the new stuff.
quote:
Originally posted by Elliott:
You're arguing with someone who has actually produced both styles to a high standard about which one is harder to make.
Seems kinda futile to me.
Lol I appreciate that Elliot, but you don't need to defend me so much. I'm not an amazing producer. I just think it makes no sense to say that one style of music is objectively better than another style.
Your tracks are very well engineered. If I ever achieve the same standard, I'll be happy. It's unlikely though because my ears suck!
You should post mixing advice :)
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i gave up producing
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brodster
Junior Member
United States
99 posts
Joined: Nov, 2013
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Posted - 2015/10/11 : 23:23:27
quote:
Originally posted by Elliott:
Your tracks are very well engineered. If I ever achieve the same standard, I'll be happy. It's unlikely though because my ears suck!
You should post mixing advice :)
I am flattered haha. My tracks aren't even that well engineered to be honest. I just copy what other people do and try to do it myself. The only mixing advice I can really give is to use high quality samples and sounds and to compare your tracks to other people's tracks so you can try to match how they are mixed. It's not that your ears are bad or that I have better ears than you. You can achieve the same results I can you just have to practice and train your ears on what to listen for :)
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rafferty
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
660 posts
Joined: Feb, 2012
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Posted - 2015/10/12 : 12:16:51
quote:
Originally posted by djDMS:
quote:
Originally posted by Elliott:
quote:
Originally posted by djDMS:
1. You're wrong
2. You might want to a bit less patronising.
I can't tell who you're replying to but if it's Brodster, I suggest you check out his music. From a technical standpoint, the guy absolutely slays it (listen to the engineering quality on Citylights for example). I trust his opinion on the matter. For my part, I've never tried to make a "modern hardcore" track because I hate that style but I really don't see how it would be any more difficult than the traditional supersaw-driven stuff. The leads are a lot weaker on the newer tracks anyway so I assume a lot less work goes into layering.
My mistake, thought I'd quoted Rafferty.
I'm all for 'progress'. But if that progress means just grabbing whatever is popular at the time then it can't be can it?
And for the record, I don't want Hardcore to sound like it did 10 or 20 years ago, I want it to have it's own identity like it did in the beginning. I've played recent Hardcore to people and the reaction was unanimous- 'oh, that just sounds like....'
I agree with you that Hardcore should have it's own identity. I think it always will to be honest.
As for hardcore following whats popular. Hardcore did that very thing in 2000 when it was named UK Hardcore.
In 2000 Trance was as big as EDM is now and everyone jumped on the popular Trance bandwagen. Hixxy even said I remember in an interview that all the Raver Baby producers at the time were heavily influenced by Trance producers.
So many of the tracks out were Trance ripp offs too. Nothing Hardcore about them. Just faster with a heavier kick.
So I really don't get why people don't like Hardcore getting influences from Edm and House music again. Hardcore pretty much started with House and Techno music influences and now your complaining about it going to it's roots in a newer better produced form.
Music has to evolve guys. Hardstyle even has evolved. It is probably one of the biggest genres around since they starting using Distorted Kicks.
That very evolution from Hard Trance to Hardstyle is what has put the genre on the map and respected.
I am certain if UK Hardcore evolves it will get alot bigger. Hardstyle kicks are becoming really poplular in Hardcore as well as edm House riffs.
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Let's ditch the candy & go back to the gym & streetwear at raves :)
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Vladel
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,525 posts
Joined: Feb, 2008
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Posted - 2015/10/12 : 15:50:57
quote:
Originally posted by rafferty:
quote:
Originally posted by djDMS:
quote:
Originally posted by Elliott:
quote:
Originally posted by djDMS:
1. You're wrong
2. You might want to a bit less patronising.
I can't tell who you're replying to but if it's Brodster, I suggest you check out his music. From a technical standpoint, the guy absolutely slays it (listen to the engineering quality on Citylights for example). I trust his opinion on the matter. For my part, I've never tried to make a "modern hardcore" track because I hate that style but I really don't see how it would be any more difficult than the traditional supersaw-driven stuff. The leads are a lot weaker on the newer tracks anyway so I assume a lot less work goes into layering.
My mistake, thought I'd quoted Rafferty.
I'm all for 'progress'. But if that progress means just grabbing whatever is popular at the time then it can't be can it?
And for the record, I don't want Hardcore to sound like it did 10 or 20 years ago, I want it to have it's own identity like it did in the beginning. I've played recent Hardcore to people and the reaction was unanimous- 'oh, that just sounds like....'
I agree with you that Hardcore should have it's own identity. I think it always will to be honest.
As for hardcore following whats popular. Hardcore did that very thing in 2000 when it was named UK Hardcore.
In 2000 Trance was as big as EDM is now and everyone jumped on the popular Trance bandwagen. Hixxy even said I remember in an interview that all the Raver Baby producers at the time were heavily influenced by Trance producers.
So many of the tracks out were Trance ripp offs too. Nothing Hardcore about them. Just faster with a heavier kick.
So I really don't get why people don't like Hardcore getting influences from Edm and House music again. Hardcore pretty much started with House and Techno music influences and now your complaining about it going to it's roots in a newer better produced form.
Music has to evolve guys. Hardstyle even has evolved. It is probably one of the biggest genres around since they starting using Distorted Kicks.
That very evolution from Hard Trance to Hardstyle is what has put the genre on the map and respected.
I am certain if UK Hardcore evolves it will get alot bigger. Hardstyle kicks are becoming really poplular in Hardcore as well as edm House riffs.
The difference being the trance influenced stuff was good and the edm stuff is not
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Elipton
Advanced Member
United Kingdom
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Joined: Apr, 2013
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Posted - 2015/10/12 : 20:04:57
Production these days is hilariously easy. You don't need anything more than the software and a pair of headphones. Production techniques and styles of music are infinitely more complex, but that's because the simplicity of production has allowed more to be done. You can have one section of a track, and constantly refine it with new layers or finer detail. That doesn't necessarily make the music more popular or better. Martin Garrix is one of the biggest flukes in music history for Animals.
I don't want to sound like a broken record, but in Hardcore the music has become simple. Sure the actual sounds are actually far nicer than previously, but VST's and software makes it a lot easier to get a cleaner output. Ironically, the music seemed more interesting and sounded better to most people when studio's were more primitive and certain techniques were harder to do - if not, impossible. Perhaps producers now have found a good balance between having a quick turnover of music and having it still be popular. Virtually all of the money in Hardcore is made from events now, so why spend so much time on tracks, eh?
quote:
Originally posted by rafferty:
No that is wrong. EDM has far more technical basslines, sample kicks and riffs than your standard UK Trancey Hardcore of the 2000s.
Making a Trancey Hardcore Track is simple as.
- Standard Kick and bassline
- Standard Simple Trancey tune
- Standard Breakdown
Now how is that technical lol???
You're making a lot of sweeping assumptions based on what? EDM envelopes hundreds of genre's and most of them do the same stuff with sampling. You talk about standard kicks and basslines, breakdowns and all that crap, but in House or Future Bass, each of their elements are 'standard' in their own respect. You will find the odd producer in each doing things completely differently, but you have that in Hardcore if you look hard enough.
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Edited by - Elipton on 2015/10/12 20:10:26 |
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