Elliott Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,147 posts Joined: May, 2012
Posted - 2016/01/02 : 01:43:16
Wow. Although this is more diplomatically worded than my response, I agree with every word.
quote:What defines UK/Happy Hardcore as a genre? Many people would have you believe that a track which is 170bpm and kick drum led is Hardcore. Wrong! I worry that the music being broadcast to those beyond Hardcore is so far detached from the rest of the scene that it isn?t actually capturing new audiences at all. Let?s face it, making an EDM track at 170bpm doesn?t make it Hardcore; it makes it an EDM track at 170bpm. When ?outsiders? hear this music, they may enjoy it, but they aren?t hearing a representation of Hardcore music. It is unlikely to make them lifelong followers.
I guess what I?m saying is, drag Hardcore with you, not just the TWR sound.
Exactly right. I've made this point several times before but you've expressed it perfectly here. I think I referred to Gammer and Styles as the new "super top tier" who basically exist in a bubble outside of the rest of the hardcore scene. They're producing almost a whole new genre and their success will never trickle down, especially when they never direct attention to the wider scene. It's almost like they're ashamed of the genre they claim to be stalwarts of.
Bravo. Apart from the MCs bit.
quote:Originally posted by DJ D-Luc-D: "I guess what I?m saying is, drag Hardcore with you, not just the TWR sound."
Can you clarify what exactly you mean by "the TWR sound"? Are you referring to big-room/Melbourne Bounce-style hardcore or the watered-down stuff that's still melodic? Or both? :P
I can't speak for anyone else but when I talk about the "TWR sound", I mean both. One of these things is more like hardcore than the other but they've both ventured a long way from home.
__________________________________ old soundcloud
i gave up producing
CDJay Advanced Member
United Kingdom
3,049 posts Joined: Nov, 2001
Posted - 2016/01/02 : 01:45:48
Don't get me wrong, that's a hypocrisy I swerved a while ago. That said, I would pair MC Enemy with F&D until the end of time. He's a free agent, accessible, and doesn't want us dead. That's a winning, albeit experimental, formula.
latininxtc Advanced Member
United States
7,307 posts Joined: Feb, 2006
Posted - 2016/01/02 : 01:50:21
quote:Originally posted by CDJay:
Don't get me wrong, that's a hypocrisy I swerved a while ago. That said, I would pair MC Enemy with F&D until the end of time. He's a free agent, accessible, and doesn't want us dead. That's a winning, albeit experimental, formula.
CDJay
free agent??? Didn't he make an announcement that he was only booked for Ravers Reunited events???
AoS_Lorenzo New Member
United States
79 posts Joined: Jun, 2015
Posted - 2016/01/02 : 01:57:44
quote:The US is seeing a resurgence in followers (although its not currently self-sufficient)
US *really* needs its own producers, There's a few older ones, It's slowly catching on with my generation & hopefully more with the generation following mine.
Elipton Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,268 posts Joined: Apr, 2013
Posted - 2016/01/02 : 01:59:49
I've said a few times that Hardcore has to look beyond it's scene for new people. The last time I had any involvement, it seemed that labels were wrestling for the majority share within the scene, without really doing the music's sustainable future much good.
Darren Styles at EDC would help, but it has to be a sustained exposure. The amount of American parties that mixes anime, conventions, other EDM styles all into one for events is why Americans enjoy Hardcore, but don't seem to actively get too involved.
It's all well getting thousands of Facebook likes and Soundcloud listens, but they're tough to use as any gauge for the size of Hardcore. How is most music listened to these days? Youtube and Spotify without a shadow of a doubt. Sure, you'll get peanuts for the material, but it's the progression of music, and theoretically, Hardcore would be isolated from casual listeners by ignoring it. It would take a brave label to do it though. Personally, even if old back cats or now unavailable compilation albums were uploaded, the access to Hardcore would be there.
I've not followed or tracked Hardcore in a couple of years, but the only time I've come across it has been on Monstercat or Soundcloud reposts of the occasional Gammer track (such as the aforementioned JB remix). If I'm not actively looking for it, I won't know when HU releases an album. If Powerstomp is still a thing, I'm sure I don't know. Why don't I know? I'm not that detached.. I still listen to music daily, why isn't Hardcore drawing my attention or popping up when I'm exploring music? I'm not avoiding it.
These are the questions label owners and promoters have to ask themselves. Oh Volume 5 of blah blah is out? How will people who don't already follow soundcloud and facebook know about this? For the main part, hardcore is still quite entertaining. There's no reason why people wouldn't like it if they heard it. Hardcore in the UK still conforms to an old recipe of events long delayed releases. Releases keep the events entertaining, but if you want Hardcore to expand, you've got to look beyond feeding the same 1000 people you may or may not cram into a HTID event.
I'm reading through Ben's blog (which is well written and asks some relevant questions) and he's mentioned the 'numbers' on Facebook etc. I've not written, published or posted anything as Archefluxx is about a year now and my page still has about 10% more likes than when I last left it. Facebook is a very illusive tool. People may like to get downloads, or like the page while enjoying the music for a phase. You can hide posts, and unfollow pages. I don't believe that they are a source of trustworthy data. If Hardcore is growing, it's at a fraction of the rate it should be. The whole world has gone EDM crazy since 2010 and you see Drum & Bass, Dubstep and new genres completely sweep in and gain huge followings. There's no reason for Hardcore to be so ignored.
Essentially, you have the same old issues rearing their ugly heads.
- The overwhelming influence of MC's. (Storm is vulgar example of someone who's been in the game for too long. He can pull strings to have DJ's booted off events line-ups, insist an artist change a track to allow for more MC verses and probably has the weight to cancel an event. The fact that an MC hosting an event has more leverage than the promoter organizing should ring serious alarm bells. Alas, Hardcore is too cumbersome-a-beast to force the change.
- Roman Empire ethos. Everyone wants to be a captain of the sinking ship. In the last years of the Western Roman Empire, treachery and murder was common in frequent power struggles and issues facing the Empire were ignored. Eventually the empire was eaten away and collapsed. Hardcore seems to be the same. I know people don't like me making this point, but labels seem to have being the biggest Hardcore label in mind by winning over everyone already within Hardcore and ignoring a responsibility branch out to potential new fans.
- Mimicking other styles. If a style of music is popular in the mainstream, it becomes popular in Hardcore two years later. Unique sounds that phase in and out of music within a year become tired for the same reason that they become popular. Novelty.
- Lack of streaming. It's where music is... Look at the figures. People don't put on a CD or rip an album for their ipod. Most of it is done with apps like Spotify or Soundcloud. I even have playlists on Youtube.
- Tracks by the DJ for the DJ. One of the diehard features of Hardcore music. You hear an amazing track in a club or hear an amazing 2:00 clip on Soundcloud and when you buy the track you get a 6-minute track with 2 minutes of DJ-friendly crap at the start and end. I'm guilty of it, but it's not the way things should be done. Make tracks listener friendly. People on the bus don't want 32 bars of DJ-bait. They want 3 minutes of everything that makes the track special. Which brings me to my next point
-- Solution: Put listener-friendly 3 minutes purpose-produced tracks (not fade-in/fade-out clips) on Soundcloud and Spotify. On Soundcloud people will be able to enjoy Hardcore in the same way as every other genre (fade outs don't make me want to listen again..) and Spotify puts the music into a place where anyone can access it. Rhapsody and Deezer are other ones. Sell the DJ-friendly tracks on Beatport and on the EPs, and you'll most likely see no change in revenue, but listenership will be much higher and it would probably see wider benefits.
Cut short, the music is music produced for other DJ's or for events. People want to listen to it through headphones and chill with it. In my opinion that's a big obstacle. It boils down to a very traditional structure in the genre that's been carried through the decades by the fossils of the top tier. This shouldn't be a question of 'how can we sell more'. The whole fundamentals of how to promote and present music should be changed for the masses, not just DJ's or rave-goers.
Maybe there are some points in there that people can agree with?
Elliott Advanced Member
United Kingdom
1,147 posts Joined: May, 2012
Posted - 2016/01/02 : 02:00:14
quote:Originally posted by CDJay:
Saves me writing anything.
The idea that DS playing EDC "helps" hardcore would have been an amusing conversation three years ago.
If we want a "scene" then surely the leading lights have to participate in it? Otherwise it's....... claiming a genre and leads precisely nowhere.
Well, that's what clubland became *well* before this particular conversation.
Commercial DJs playing TWR tracks has *nothing* to do with hardcore. It's not like the start of the series when there was stuff alluded to (to *find* and *retain*)
From where I'm sitting, it's gone full circle far faster than I hoped. The dip was obvious, despite my obvious warnings and interventions, but I figured we might get ahead of it. In a year where we claimed various technical firsts (Blu-ray! Multichannel! Pro mastering! Crowdfunding! High res audio! TV advertising!) the most important thing apparently is that a few of someones mates allowed a high tempo presence in their lusted after wonderland. Hooooooooo-ray. I notice the Gareth Emery track we cleared wasn't worth mentioning, even if it *was* this year.
I can't say this clearly enough: The leading lights of the scene actually want to leave it. It's currently an easy option, it's a claimable genre, but their actual interest in it is so low that anyone investing in their leadership needs to seriously question wtf they are thinking.
Feel free to point at the last few years of their remarkable stewardship as opposition.
I'm sure "jealousy" will be mooted as an explanation for my reaction. No, we've tried to do the right thing so many times I've chafed from it. If you can't reply to an e-mail from HU in 8 months you clearly don't give a shit about the genre you inhabit.
I'll give it another year, swimming against a tide of self entitled ********, like any/every other, but that's it.
CDJay
The gloves have come off!
And rightly so, I think.
__________________________________ old soundcloud
i gave up producing
latininxtc Advanced Member
United States
7,307 posts Joined: Feb, 2006
Posted - 2016/01/02 : 02:00:32
quote:Originally posted by CDJay:
Best UK MC by a way
We will disagree on that one drunk sir! Well his stint with RR didn't last for long, can't say I'm surprised, even more surprised that RR is still around after licking its wounds this past summer!
latininxtc Advanced Member
United States
7,307 posts Joined: Feb, 2006
Posted - 2016/01/02 : 02:19:48
I'll just leave this here...
I would have recorded the whole set, but then I realized I'm not pathetic enough to fly 1000 miles to stick my hand up in the air with a camera for a whole hour
Plus I paid for a Blu Ray which I can't wait till it's done!
Alert moderatorEdited by - latininxtc on 2016/01/02 02:21:25
Samination Advanced Member
Sweden
13,230 posts Joined: Jul, 2004
195 hardcore releases
Posted - 2016/01/02 : 09:30:44
quote:Originally posted by latininxtc:
I'll just leave this here...
was this supposted to be better? :P To me during those 2 minutes he where almost all over the place
__________________________________
---------------------------------------------
Samination, Swedish Hardcore DJ
Happy, UK Hardcore, Freeform, Makina and Gabber http://samination.se/ ---------------------------------------------
GrahamC Advanced Member
United Kingdom
596 posts Joined: Dec, 2007
Posted - 2016/01/02 : 09:49:33
quote:Originally posted by Samination:
quote:Originally posted by latininxtc:
I'll just leave this here...
was this supposted to be better? :P To me during those 2 minutes he where almost all over the place
This! This is why I only signed on to buy the bluray after it was confirmed there would be the sets minus the MC in the box on CD (Hopefully selectable on the BD as well??). That is completely awful, I cant't fathom how anybody that thinks somebody bellowing like a numpty makes the event better, for me it is the polar opposite, it ruins it for me.
Reminds me of the bitter disappointment of when I was 16 and bought my first tape-pack and realising there were these arseholes ruining it and its exactly why I would rather buy a compilation album than go to an event, for me it's all about the music and nothing else.
djDMS Advanced Member
United Kingdom
10,304 posts Joined: Feb, 2003
572 hardcore releases
Posted - 2016/01/02 : 11:44:10
New year, same old feeling of deja vu.
'HARDCORE IS GOING TO BE MASSIVE THIS YEAR'
No, it could be massive if the right people were allowed to do the right things.
Instead, it's the same people commanding the same fees for less effort. Yes, there ARE new people coming through, but only in Hardcore will you see that new talent being forcibly held back by the establishment.
Other genres - 5 new artists in the headlines every week.
Hardcore - each new artist forced to beg, change or fight for scraps every single day.
And if it isn't the same next year I'll happily show my arse onstage at HTID
__________________________________
Taking my time to perfect the beat
Printer friendly
Posted - 2016/01/02 : 01:43:16
